Men's Stories about Health

Stanton Shanedling: Hello, everybody! Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's show is on men's story, men's story about health. It should be an interesting show.

Stanton Shanedling: We've got a great guest, and we'll introduce him to you in a second. We've got a great crew that's behind the scenes that helps us make all these shows great and great for you, the listening audience: Maddie Levine Wolf, Aaron Collins, Deandra Howard, who do our research and help with our recording of the shows. Matthew Campbell is our production person who gets all the shows out to you, the listening audience, in perfect form. Sheridan Nygaard also does background research for us and works in our marketing. So they're a great crew. Thank you to all of you. My colleagues in doing the shows are Clarence Jones and Dr. Barry Baines, both wonderful colleagues. This has been a real fun exercise, doing Health Chatter for all these episodes that we've done, so thank you to you as well. Human Partnership is our sponsor for Health Chatter. You can check them out at humanpartnershipalliance.org, and you can check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com for all the different shows, whether you want to listen to them or read the transcripts and the background research for our shows as well. So thank you to all of you, and there's all the information for you. Clarence, I'll let you introduce our illustrious guest for today.

Clarence Jones: I think that was a wonderful leading, illustrious guest. This is going to be a kind of organic conversation. We've had Sam on our show before, talking about a variety of different things, and Sam has... you know, I've known Sam for a while, and what is interesting about Sam is that Sam has been someone that I have truly enjoyed, especially as it relates to public health, particularly around the issue of trauma. But Sam, this is June, and this show might air in July, I don't know, but for the month of June, we talk about men's health. Sam has been doing a conference for a long period of time, for over 17 years. In fact, I think I was at his first conference. So we've been doing that for a long time, but I wanted Sam to come on so that he could talk more about that conference. He can talk about his book, but I think this is going to be a rather organic conversation about Black men and about parenting. And so there's some commonalities in birthing and all those kinds of things. But anyway, I'm saying all of that to just say, hold on to your seat because we're getting ready to take a ride. So I just want to say, welcome Sam to Health Chatter.

Sam Simmons: Well, thank you for having me and allowing me to be on your show.

Sam Simmons: We'll see if we can live up to all that which you just said.

Sam Simmons: How about that?

Clarence Jones: Okay. Okay. So like I said, folks, hang on to your seat belt because Sam's gonna take us for a ride.

Clarence Jones: So let's start off, Sam. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll get into talking about some of the work that you've done. But tell me about who you are.

Sam Simmons: Oh, that, you know, that's... yeah. Okay. I am a behavioral consultant, licensed chemical dependency counselor. I often tell people I'm semi-retired, but for some reason lately, I seem to be just as busy as when I called myself working. I've been doing work around chemical health and behavioral health probably about a little over 35 years. And my focus over the last probably 17, 18 years has been on trauma and focusing more, at least initially, on Black male trauma and how that affects the community as a whole. And why it is important to really acknowledge and address that trauma, and really look at how it shows up.

Clarence Jones: Yeah.

Clarence Jones: So, Sam, one of the things that has always intrigued me was how you entered into this work, but also, why do you think the work is so important?

Sam Simmons: Okay. Well, you know, over the years, some of my initial work—I also worked in the past at Northwestern Hospital in their lock unit many years ago. And then I also had a background where I worked initially, in terms of what got me interested in leaning towards focusing on trauma really probably was ignited when I went through the chronic pain clinic in the... I believe it was in the eighties, because initially I used to be a truck driver for the University of Minnesota and was injured, went through the Pain Clinic, and actually later on, I became a consultant to the Pain Clinic. And one of the things I observed and learned in terms of working with clients in the Pain Clinic is that, you know, everybody suffers, you know, people suffer pain and have difficulty with pain. Not everybody is considered having chronic pain. And then, when it came to folks that were in our program, one of the things that was consistent was probably about 69, 70% of the folks had some type of family trauma. Now, people might say, well, bad things happen in every family. But if there were specific types of trauma that showed up most often, chemical dependency in the family, domestic violence in the family, were two of the big ones, along with mental health trauma in the family, right? And how people... because a lot of the folks that we dealt with in the program were high achievers. And so what I figured out was that there were three socially acceptable ways for people to kind of cover their trauma, and that was with perfectionism, caretaking, and workaholism—you know, the idea of staying busy. You know, caretaking, for example, a lot of the folks who came to the program were in the care professions, you know, like counselors, doctors, therapists, and those kinds of things. And I always say, I rather get in your business because I can't handle mine. And if you talk to a lot of folks who work in therapy, sometimes you'll hear this story in the background about them working through their own stuff and went to school, got their education, that kind of thing. And so that would be what I observed in the mainstream because that was across the board. But again, I want to emphasize the socially acceptable ways of covering up your trauma are those kinds of things, you know. It's like, think about working with a hardcore perfectionist who's never happy about their stuff, and then wonder why they might not have a lot of friends when they're injured, because they don't... you know, how do you be a consistent friend with somebody who reminds you of what's wrong with you just by being around them, right? And so, like, they would be injured, their family would say, "Stuff! Well, my family don't help me." Well, you never allowed your family to help you. And so how do they all of a sudden start helping you now? And back in the Pain Clinic, what I loved was talking to the kids because the kids would tell me everything, right? They'd say, "Yeah, Daddy is a pain in the butt. I used to, you know, because he worked all the time. And now, all of a sudden, he's home all the time and wants to give us new rules and wants to move everything around the house and then acts like we're supposed to be happy about that." And the good thing is it made them hear what the family had to say. So that was really the foundation of that whole kind of thing because I never used to talk about trauma. I used to talk about, "It's time to deal with the pain," and the emotional, physical, and psychological pain, and how we overcompensate if one of those areas feels like it comes up short.

Clarence Jones: And which led me...

Sam Simmons: More later on, working more into the community and specifically in the African American community because in the hospital that would have been a mixed audience and probably leaned more non-African American in the work. So luckily, I started with that background and worked into the community.

Stanton Shanedling: So I've got a question for you, Sam. So you've been in the field a long time.

Sam Simmons: Yes.

Stanton Shanedling: And you're talking about trauma, and you're talking about chemical dependency, etc., etc. So give me your insight on how those manifestations affect health.

Stanton Shanedling: In other words, you see these people and you've dealt with these people. Did you have any perception on health overall, and how their health was affected by trauma or by chemical dependency or what have you?

Sam Simmons: Well, the interesting thing is, again, we're kind of talking about a couple of different groups, like the group that I was dealing with in the hospital where, when we finally, towards the end of the program, the majority of our clients were middle-class individuals who would actually say they didn't have a problem. Right? And so, you're talking about chronic pain. We're also talking about one of the interesting areas around opioid misuse. We saw that coming way before they even tried to have a conversation about it, you know, because it was easier to chase a pill than to do the physical therapy and reorganize your life so you give your body time to relax. You know, a lot of the health issues, especially with the folks in the Pain Clinic, several of them probably had issues with alcohol before they had issues with pills. Right? But the biggest thing is they didn't know how to slow down. If the doctor tells me to go home and rest for 3 or 4 weeks, and I'm a perfectionist, and I'm anal, and it's all or nothing, I'm not going to go home and relax for 3 or 4 weeks. And if there's a pill out there that I can take that will let me get through the day and then suffer that night, and then I have to have another pill. So we're talking about folks who probably had their kind of addictive behavior, but they were covering it up with activity. They were covering it up. So addictions, unfortunately, we want to narrow them down. Again, when you talk about a hardcore caretaker, that's an addiction on other people's misery, right? And to cover up something that I don't want to deal with.

Sam Simmons: But we also have groups of people who have been relegated to that position of caregivers because that’s been their role in America in terms of the hierarchy.

Barry Baines: Good.

Sam Simmons: So when you start adding things like historical trauma, cultural differences, and those kinds of things, you see the nuances that people don’t like to deal with. It shows up differently.

Barry Baines: Yeah. So one of the other things we did was a show on disparities in health care, and we know that, generally speaking, populations of color don’t get the same level of care or access as the Caucasian population. That’s sort of a given. From your perspective, does that play a role in the options available for your clientele, particularly black men? For example, is there a better option for addressing trauma? And if so, do they have access to it? Because if they’re shut off from that, then what? In some ways, it makes it worse, right? Like, there’s something that can be done, but I can’t get it or access it. How do you see that?

Sam Simmons: The word disparity is interesting because, yes, there are disparities, and they’ve always been there. But that’s just the way it’s been. The other piece is the other side — that’s why I’d rather deal with the other side. Even if I have healthcare, I don’t use it. There are a lot more folks who have healthcare than men who actually use it.

So when you talk about things that add to disparities, think about 300 years of being conditioned to believe you’re less than. Why would I use it? How do I fit my manhood into a society that says I’m less than a man depending on who else is in the room? When you talk about trauma, not dealing with it actually contributes to disparities. Trauma eats you from the inside out when you don’t even realize it.

I often say I can talk about being a black man a lot easier than other men. One of the things about being black in America is still trying to figure out historically how to fit, how to be significant other than being seen as the problem. When you talk about adding to disparity or making trauma worse, if I’m deemed the problem and treated like a problem, what am I supposed to do? If I need help but am treated like a problem, I’m not coming to you for help. So we have layers that add to disparity.

Then the other piece is if punitive measures are only used for certain groups—say black men—while others don’t have to deal with that. The average white person might move if things get tough. They only know what they see on TV. The only time black men show up on TV is being straddled over a police car, while the other person just answers from their car. A nice white individual driving by sees this often enough and concludes something extra is wrong with them. That adds to disparity because it removes empathy.

Stanton Shanedling: Hmm.

Sam Simmons: Exactly. It’s almost like circular thinking, which doesn’t get you anywhere.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah, circular thinking traps you.

Sam Simmons: But the question is, how do you connect the dots? We want to connect the dots going forward, but many don’t want to connect the dots going backward. My focus on male trauma, specifically black male trauma, is to say: when you have long continuous trauma, it affects how you see the world and how the world sees you.

Sometimes we get lazy talking about disparities from one direction because if I want to address disparity, one big thing is education. If you educate me, I might do better for myself. Historically, if I’m seen in a servant role, I’m more likely to feel better doing stuff for others. In our community, we feel better doing stuff for others than for ourselves because we’ve been conditioned to do that and praised for it. People say, “You’re long suffering, you’re such an advocate.” We elevate trauma to the point where I’m out there giving and getting credit, but as soon as I get healthy enough to care for myself, folks turn on me. That’s because we’re conditioned to care for others before ourselves.

Stanton Shanedling: Clarence, I know you’re chomping at the bit.

Clarence Jones: Yeah, we better buckle up. I know Sam well. I wanted to talk about his upcoming conference and his book, because I’m sure trauma ties into parenting—some of us have been traumatized by parenting. Sam, tell us a bit about your conference and your book.

Sam Simmons: Sure. The conference is called “Community Empowerment for Black Men.” We started it in 2009, and this is our 17th year. The reason we started it was that when issues like disparities, housing, or drug use come up in the black community, if we’re not talking about how systems contribute to these problems, the conversation quickly turns to what black men aren’t doing. We get stuck on that.

I thought, maybe instead of just focusing on the system or what black men aren’t doing, we should talk about black men themselves. I had a colleague who said we need to hold the system accountable, which is true, but I also said we need some accountability and understanding within the community too.

We had a loud argument about this—staff got scared, doors were vibrating, folks were scared to knock. Then it got quiet and we realized they were outside. We opened the door and said, “We’re good.” We concluded we were both right.

How do you hold someone accountable if you don’t give them grace? We don’t recognize male trauma across the board, no matter the group. How do you ignore an entire gender’s trauma and then be surprised by how they treat themselves and others? Men have no outlet to deal with trauma, so they share it with everyone else. The more they suffer, the more the family and community suffer tenfold.

Stanton Shanedling: Like misery loves company, but you’re still not solving the problem.

Sam Simmons: Right. The problem persists especially because we don’t recognize it. It’s like being surrounded by water in a boat but ignoring the hole leaking water in. Instead, people say, “Look at the ocean.” We’ve been conditioned to see ourselves as victims with no hope or skills.

My work with black men and trauma became clearer when I started doing domestic violence work. Initially, it was about breaking men down and then building them back up—“beat him down, relive what he did, then rebuild.” But how do you beat down a population that’s already beaten? I work with young men who know punishment because they’re punished by the community and the system. They know more about punishment than love. Threatening punishment doesn’t change behavior, and we see that on the news every day since COVID.

When we did the first conference, it was a one-day event focused on the question: If we focused on male trauma, would the community improve? We looked at education, parenting, the church, and had workshops. It made people think differently about their role and why we have to be truthful. Our culture has over 400 years of trauma built around surviving trauma.

If we address trauma, we could approach the enemy differently. The community’s response to trauma has evolved. When I first started, I got pushback from older folks who thought talking about trauma was negative. But trauma is often associated with negativity. The community gets credit for resilience—but nobody can be resilient for 400 years without breaking.

We’re like “Mikey”—you can do whatever you want to us, but we’ll survive. Some in the community believe if you haven’t suffered enough, you’re not black enough. So trauma is built into the culture.

The church, during slavery, helped people believe in something greater than this life, which gave strength to get through daily life, but it didn’t address the trauma. Both can be done.

Over 17 years, different parts of the religious community have come along, talking about trauma more. It could still be better, but clients begin to understand trauma. Think about it: if you’re surrounded by trauma historically, you might not even know you’re traumatized.

Sam Simmons:
Right. Why would you start with the “nice kid” and not the “problem kid” to try to work things out?

If Black men were being talked about only in terms of what they weren’t doing, you’d get people focusing on the negative things Black men supposedly do, which ultimately benefits the system in the bigger picture. But that’s a whole other conversation.

Stanton Shanedling:
So basically, it was all-inclusive? Is that what you’re saying?

Sam Simmons:
It was all-inclusive, but the issue is, we started with the men. It was really about how to empower the community as a whole. Over the years, probably more women attended because they didn’t know if they could come. But more women did come, and we also have a good number of folks who aren’t African American coming because of how we put it together, which is a good thing.

You’ve got to understand, most of the work in the medical and therapy systems is done by women. There’s a history behind that. When I first started the conference, one Black woman came up to me and said, “You don’t focus on Black men; Black men are causing so much problem. What about us?” I told her if a Black man deals with his trauma, you won’t feel like you have to fix it, and then you can focus on your own stuff.

Stanton Shanedling:
Or the rest of the family.

Sam Simmons:
Exactly. But in our community, Black women have often been put in the position of elevating their male partners at the cost of themselves.

We’ve had conferences around domestic violence — last year it was about the family, this year it’s about Black fathers. We’ve talked about fathers before, but now it’s specifically about Black fathers and how do we allow them to be involved in a child’s life early on.

Stanton Shanedling:
Barry, in your practice, did you see patients you’d identify as trauma victims?

Barry Baines:
Well, at the time I was practicing, very few. I was somewhat removed from direct work with families, focusing more on geriatric patients — people dying. Trauma would come up, but mostly around how you reconcile that reality.

The idea of people being traumatized is still evolving. It’s becoming more talked about now; before, it was hidden and not something you discussed.

If we could rewind and do a redo like on a show, that’d be great, but we only live our lives once. If I were to do it again, I’d be more knowledgeable about trauma’s impact on people’s lives.

We all have our own traumas and hopefully, we’re learning to handle them more healthily as we move forward.

Barry Baines:
I’m struck by the idea of resilience—not as a way to explain away trauma, like “Don’t worry, we’re resilient.” The fact that we’ve survived trauma for 400 years means we have resilience. That’s a good thing.

Sam Simmons:
I have a problem with that.

Barry Baines:
Right, but yes. I’m just wondering if there are some parts of resilience—not the whole package of survival—but some nuggets that could help people manage trauma more effectively.

We can discuss that; I don’t have the answer, but it makes me wonder because survivors have demonstrated resilience.

Stanton Shanedling:
Basically, what Barry is saying is these are our success stories. You’ve been in the field a while, so you must have some success stories to reflect on.

And for our audience, there’s a great new book out that…

Sam Simmons:
I’m fine with the ugly truth. Too many folks want to jump straight to the Kumbaya moment—I don’t have time for that.

There’s beauty in suffering, but behind closed doors, it’s messy. People call that resilience.

But what’s the real definition of resilience?

Sam Simmons:
If you look at the basic definition, resilience is a type of recovery. But if I have a lot of trauma already, what am I recovering to?

Stanton Shanedling:
Isn’t it about coping?

Sam Simmons:
Yes, coping. But if I don’t have a good foundation to return to, then I’m just surviving. So I survive, and I get credit because I do it with a smile and a dance that makes you comfortable.

But I’m not trying to make anyone comfortable with what’s really going on with me.

What I’ve found is that for some folks, trauma has been so normal for so long that they don’t even recognize it as trauma.

Stanton Shanedling:
Yeah.

Sam Simmons:
So if you’re not even having a real conversation about it, like trauma-informed care when it first came out, it didn’t focus much on cultural differences or on how traumatized the staff doing the work were.

Stanton Shanedling:
So the population kind of sees it as normal.

Sam Simmons:
Right. And part of our community believes being Black is about suffering—and you get a crown for that.

So I ask my clients to connect the dots, to think about what’s going on differently and approach things differently. I want people to think about it differently as they go forward.

Not being afraid to talk about your trauma is key. Generally, folks want to hide the ugly—that’s what we do, especially here in our community. We were told not to talk about our stuff.

Stanton Shanedling:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Simmons:
Exactly.

Stanton Shanedling:
Well, we could go on for a long time in this area. Clarence, last word?

Clarence Jones:
Let me say this. We never really got to talk about the conference, but I knew the conversation would be organic. I hope people really appreciate what’s going on here.

We’re going to bring Sam back next time to talk more about his book and his work.

This was a great Health Chatter episode—that’s really what we wanted. I appreciate you, Sam, for taking the time, I know you’re busy. Barry, I was watching you—looking forward to more good conversations.

Thanks, everyone.

Stanton Shanedling:
Barry, last thoughts?

Barry Baines:
I always appreciate hearing other perspectives that make me think differently.

Stanton Shanedling:
Yeah, really.

Barry Baines:
When you do that, you can change in a good way. That’s what I’m hoping. Thanks, Sam. I enjoyed our conversation.

Stanton Shanedling:
Sam, last thoughts?

Sam Simmons:
Our conference is next week—Thursday and Friday, June 26th and 27th at Saint Paul College. The focus is Black fathers.

Thanks for having me on. I know I can get a little out there, but my goal isn’t necessarily agreement, but at least to get people thinking differently.

Stanton Shanedling:
You do that really well. You help us get the gestalt—not just a snippet, but the bigger picture and how it affects health.

I really appreciate hearing all this and hope the audience does too. It’s almost an awakening we need to be aware of. If we can do that through venues like this, like Health Chatter or your conference, so be it. Let’s do it—it’s beneficial.

Sam Simmons:
One last thing: the book is called Just Sam. It’s about my trauma and how I help others with theirs.

Stanton Shanedling:
Wow. Thanks for putting it down in writing.

Thanks for being with us on Health Chatter. Keep health chatting—we have many shows coming up on medication management, autism, dermatology, kids and health, and even someone sharing her abortion experience.

For everyone listening, keep health chatting away!