Mindfulness, Meditation & Health

Stanton Shanedling: Hello, everybody! Welcome to Health Chatter! Today's show is on mindfulness, meditation, and health. Should be an interesting subject for sure, and we'll… we're all gonna do this show and relax at the same time. It should be… it should be a trip.

Anyway, got a great guest, who some of us have known for a long time, and it's great to reconnect with him: Dr. David Alter. I'll introduce him in a minute. Got a great crew. I always like to introduce them because they're second to none: Matty Levine-Wolf, Aaron Collins, DeAndra Howard, Sheridan Nygaard, Matthew Campbell. They've been with us since day one on Health Chatter, providing research, marketing, transcription. They put the shows out for us as production, and put beautiful music in on the show so that it becomes really easy for you, the listening audience, to listen. And so we thank them gratefully.

Clarence Jones is my partner, and it's wonderful having a community perspective from Clarence. And then, of course, there's Dr. Barry Baines, who provides our medical insight. Great, great crew, second to none.

We have a sponsor, Human Partnership, a great community health organization. They do wonderful things out in the community. Really worthwhile to check them out at humanpartnershipalliance.org. They do such creative things, and I keep hearing about them every day, so it's worth checking out.

Check us out at HealthChatterPodcast.com, where you will see all the shows. The shows are transcribed if you want to read them, but you can also see the background research that we include from our shows. We add to them as more information becomes available.

So, thanks to everybody. Today: mindfulness, meditation, and health. Got a great guest: Dr. David Alter, a psychologist who has been in the field probably as long as we've been in our respective fields in public health and medicine. He's done some really creative things in his career, co-authored books and peer-reviewed articles, done a lot of work around photography and connected it with his field.

He's currently translating his years of study and discovery into a podcast, which we talked about right before this show started: Transforming Relationships. So this should be an interesting show. Check that out.

He founded Partners in Healing in 1999, which I'm sure he'll reflect on when we start. He received his doctorate through the Rosalind Franklin School of Medicine and Science in 1992.

David, thank you greatly for being with us today. It's a real treat. Hopefully you'll be able to tell us how to meditate so that we can truly relax and breathe. Here we go—we're gonna test that out, okay?

Let me get the ball rolling a little bit. Ed, you know, I keep thinking about meditation and health, and just talk to me about that a little bit. How do they link? Why is it important? What does it do for us, for each one of us? And do we end up doing it more often when something happens—a life event, a medical issue—that causes anxiety and requires calming down?

David Alter: Well, I hear a few different facets or points in your comment that I'll try to respond to. The first is… there's a kind of déjà vu quality to today's focus on meditation, mindfulness meditation, and health.

What I mean is that meditation, even mindfulness meditation—a particular style or type—is not a new thing. We're going back literally thousands of years, depending on which part of the globe we're talking about. Meditative practices have been part of both Eastern and Western faiths, as well as Middle Eastern faiths. There's a long-standing awareness that being in the world can be tough and challenging, and that these challenges can negatively impact our day-to-day functioning.

Therefore, there were different styles, often linked to religious or spiritual traditions, aimed at putting ourselves back in a place where we can thrive, not just survive. Early Hindu practices, Judaic and Christian practices—all generated meditative schools and styles. There's this sense that we can get derailed in how we function daily, and meditative practices are a way back.

You also mentioned doing it every day. Does that yield benefits? Yes, of course. Anytime we do something healthful, it's beneficial. But it's also an acknowledgment that we're trying to create a lifestyle oriented toward health, not just a practice for the duration of a session.

Meditative practices are about creating a lifestyle that promotes healthful awareness and habits, which help stop stress-mediated difficulties that can lead to hypertension, sleep disturbance, depression, anxiety, marital distress, and conflicts. It puts us in a position where we can be less reactive and more responsive.

The third point you mentioned, Stan, is modern research. There's lots of evidence now, using modern scientific methods, showing specific health benefits for people engaged in a lifestyle that includes meditative practices. It's comforting, soothing, and health-promoting. Those are three points I wanted to address.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah. Clarence, what do you think?

Clarence Jones: It's interesting. When I talk to people about meditation and mindfulness, there's such a… uncertainty about it. Sometimes people think that if you do too much, you almost become zombie-like. But I do think it's important to learn more about the health portion—where people might think they don't have time to meditate. You're saying it doesn't take long, but I'd like to know more about the healthfulness of this practice and how long it takes to experience its impact.

David Alter: I love that observation and question, Clarence.

Contemporary life, especially in the West and America in particular, is very oriented to techniques: how do you meditate, how do you lift weights, how do you run, how do you eat healthily? What I'm trying to convey—and I'll come back to this—is that it's not just about what we do, but about how we are: how we show up in our daily lives.

As a concrete example, when people are nervous about meditating—worrying they'll become a zombie, or violate their religious faith—they can draw on research. Our brain emits energy in the form of brain waves, which can be read on an EEG. These brain waves are categorized as high beta, beta, alpha, delta, gamma. Simply closing your eyes, taking a breath, and exhaling shifts your brain from high beta and beta into an alpha state, which is calming.

So we’re not talking about adopting a belief system—just closing your eyes and taking a slow breath is meditative. Mindfulness meditation goes beyond that, but it highlights that we are embodied creatures. We absorb what's in our world, and often that's destabilizing. Meditative practices give us ready access—through breath, awareness, and posture—to feel grounded, reconnected, more resilient, and stable. Less reactive, more responsive.

Clarence Jones: Yeah, I think you're absolutely correct. We don't always realize what we have available to us already. To say, “just stop, close your eyes, take a breath”—we don’t even do that. It’s important to let people know how meaningful that is, even in and of itself.

David Alter: Right. I've been thinking about this even before Barry reached out. As a therapist, I've been doing this work for 35-plus years. But in the last year or two, the nature of what clients bring has changed—not only their personal concerns…

David Alter: My job sucks. My marriage is falling apart…

David Alter: My blood pressure is up, my digestion is off—so sort of medical, psychological concerns.

David Alter: Just… what is today? Thursday? On Tuesday, two of the people I saw came in explicitly to say, "I'm really having a hard time dealing with what's going on in the world."

David Alter: So we see that we are permeable to what's happening within, and we're permeable to what's happening around us.

David Alter: If we acknowledge that, how much more important is it to then say: you're at risk.

David Alter: You're at risk for being swept away. You're at risk for not being able to be at your best.

David Alter: Yeah, I know, but what am I supposed to do? Well…

David Alter: One thing you can do is learn to pause.

David Alter: You have the ability to choose to pause, and you can pause multiple times a day. I don't have time for that. Well, I'm not talking about pausing for an hour at a time.

David Alter: I'm talking about pausing for 10 seconds. Well, what good is that? You'd be surprised.

David Alter: As you said, Clarence, right at our fingertips are things that are already within us. Meditation isn't something out there; meditation is a practice that brings out what's already in here.

David Alter: To bring that forward in a way that increases resilience, peace, and the ability to have conversations at the dinner table with people who have different political beliefs.

David Alter: It's really important as a peace-seeking path—not only a physical piece, but a mental, emotional, medical piece. P-E-A-C-E, not P-I-E-C-E.

Stanton Shanedling: So, Barry! Your thoughts?

Barry Baines: Yes. Actually, there are a few. I'll kind of unpack them as I see it.

Barry Baines: Number one, when you're—metaphorically—driving along at 120 miles an hour, you're gonna miss the exits. You won't appreciate the scenery. So it's a question of how to slow things down or calm things.

Barry Baines: Another piece, David, is how the concerns that people in therapy bring to you have now gone beyond just personal life—they're in ever-widening circles. Part of the problem is we feel like we are losing control.

Barry Baines: When that happens, we're under more stress. And then the medical piece kicks in: stress hormones firing up like crazy, making you physically uncomfortable—fight or flight. This has other medical implications: blood pressure, sleep, cardiovascular risks, immune system effects, chronic disease worsening.

Barry Baines: What I've found, because I do some meditation, is that the number one thing is the breathing. It doesn't take an hour, and in addition to calming you down, it gives a sense of control.

Barry Baines: You're purposely focusing on this. Consciously taking a deep breath in, exhaling slowly over 5–10 seconds—it's not how we breathe normally—but it literally calms things down.

Barry Baines: My first exposure was probably during OB, with women in labor. The breathing techniques to manage pain were amazing—simple, not weird. Everybody can do it because it builds on something we do automatically: breathing.

Barry Baines: Closing our eyes, getting a sense of control, helps you gather yourself. It gives a different perspective. That's my take. Personally, I wish I did it every day. I do it more often than not: a 10-minute sit, Native American flute music, eyes closed, breathing. Afterwards, you feel refreshed; worries diminish.

Clarence Jones: Interesting—like Dr. Berry was talking, I do breathing exercises to go to sleep. I don't think of it as meditation, just little breathing exercises, and I fall asleep. It speaks to our internal… internalness. Learning to relax and use meditative things really helps.

Stanton Shanedling: So, David, research shows different methods, like linking breathing with yoga and mindful stretching. Can you encapsulate it for us?

David Alter: I'll do what I can. What you're about to hear reflects my personal, professional bias. I'm not speaking absolute truth—I'm speaking from experience.

David Alter: The word "yoga" is synonymous with "yoke"—like yoking cattle to plow fields. What are you yoking together? Mind and body, to align them differently.

David Alter: Ancient wisdom recognizes that we continue to struggle with whether mind and body are one or separate. Descartes said separate; other traditions said different facets of the same thing.

David Alter: We've developed methods to coexist with mind and body, to understand awareness and control, to respond to being out of control. This ties back to interior-ness. Philosophical dilemmas, methodologies, all aimed at navigating a difficult world without succumbing to stressors.

David Alter: We want to live fully, smile at the end of the day, or put our head on the pillow and have a good night’s sleep. These are different forms of acting on awareness in different domains: conscious, intentional, unaware, reactive, or victim of circumstances.

David Alter: Consider a person who feels on top of the world, gets checked, and finds stage 3 cancer. Their existence profoundly changes. They can feel like a victim, or co-participate in their healing. Meditative approaches can help the body respond differently, activating positive immune responses and shifting from sympathetic (fight-or-flight) to parasympathetic (energy-healing, repair).

David Alter: Modern scientific awareness couples with ancient understanding on how to navigate life without being constantly victimized.

Stanton Shanedling: Absolutely. For illustration: at Methodist Hospital, I see orthopedic patients post-surgery. I start by asking, “What's your pain level?”

Stanton Shanedling: One patient said 7–8. I suggested she take a deep breath with me for 15 seconds. Afterwards, she rated her pain as 4. Not that she wouldn’t need medication, but it helped calm her.

Stanton Shanedling: There's daily stuff, and then outside influences—balancing both is challenging. Thoughts?

David Alter: Yeah. Start with a surprising place: Jon Kabat-Zinn, who popularized mindfulness meditation, wrote Wherever You Go, There You Are.

David Alter: People go to their “pain bubble” when asked their pain level. I ask about comfort level. After 15 seconds of breathing, comfort might grow, shifting focus from negative to a more positive orientation.

David Alter: The human brain can both be in an experience and detached from it. The metaphor: being swept by a river versus sitting on the side and watching it. Stepping out of the river of craziness—reading the news, social media—allows distance and control.

David Alter: Meditation often comes as a response to loss or struggle. It helps create cognitive distance, so pain is acknowledged but less overwhelming.

Stanton Shanedling: Your “river” visual is perfect. Getting out of the river allows perspective. Consider uncontrollable events like COVID: it forced lifestyle adjustments we didn’t anticipate.

Stanton Shanedling: The whole, the whole nine yards. So, can you maybe comment on how mindfulness and meditation are connected?

Stanton Shanedling: With COVID—did we see more people practicing mindfulness and meditation because of COVID, etc.? Take a stab at that.

David Alter: That's a wonderful question, Stan. I'll start in maybe an unpredictable spot, but hopefully…

Stanton Shanedling: On the side of the river.

David Alter: I think that social researchers, sociopolitical researchers, and public health researchers are probably a few years away from fully understanding the depth and breadth of upheaval COVID caused.

Clarence Jones: Yeah. At the core of it…

David Alter: There’s something pretty toxic to human beings: we are social creatures. We need each other. We need to be in relationship.

David Alter: That’s why my colleague and I are launching this podcast about what makes relationships transformative—what’s a healing relationship, what’s a toxic relationship. COVID isolated us. It disrupted connection.

Stanton Shanedling: Yup.

David Alter: Early on, I was asked to do a national webinar on whether clinical hypnosis could be done over a monitor, because it's usually face-to-face. Frankly, the research now—years into remote practice—shows it works, but it’s not the same as in-person. There are significant differences when we’re not in each other’s presence. COVID disrupted that.

David Alter: Meditation can help. Many meditative practices include not just breathing and exhaling, but also thoughts about yourself, the people in your life, and the larger world. Loving-kindness meditations create connections, even while sitting in your favorite chair. You’re not alone—you’re still connected in healing ways.

David Alter: Many meditative traditions come from religious or faith traditions. Prayers are often prayers of gratitude. Who are you expressing gratitude to? Some divine entity. Prayer, like meditation, is about connection—remembering you’re not alone.

David Alter: University of Chicago researcher Cassiopo talked about the toxic effects of loneliness and disconnection, which COVID gave us in spades. Meditation is a healing, reconnecting response to pandemic-induced social isolation.

Stanton Shanedling: That’s interesting—medical conditions can be isolating too. Like after a heart attack or surgery—you’re kind of in it by yourself. People may sympathize, but you’re still dealing with it on your own. And perhaps it gets harder as you get older, as resilience decreases.

David Alter: I had an experience about a year ago with an elderly gentleman who had been married to his childhood sweetheart for over 60 years. She had stopped eating late in her cancer journey; he was witnessing her waste away, in and out of consciousness. He came to see me, angry, asking, “So what the hell are you gonna do? She’s gonna die.”

David Alter: I told him, “I’m not going to cure anything. I’m here to help you recognize that you’re not going through this alone.” He stopped, the tears dried up, and we had a conversation about loss grounded in interpersonal connection.

David Alter: Even though it was his experience, there was a sense of that experience in a social context. When you look at Buddhist sutras or loving-kindness meditations, you recognize the reconnecting, rejoining aspects—they hold deep wisdom. It’s terrifying to be alone in this world, and sometimes we are. Meditation adds a layer of connection.

Stanton Shanedling: David, do you believe meditation, mindfulness, and maybe yoga help us realize a new normal—something that’s always been there but that we can connect with consciously?

David Alter: I’d say it connects us with the original normal. For example, I do nature photography. When I’m in sync with the wilderness, I’m in sync with the fact that we co-evolved with it.

David Alter: Even for people with sleep disturbances, spending a week waking with the sun and sleeping by moonlight and stars can be curative—they reconnect with original rhythms of activity and rest.

David Alter: We live in an accelerated state. Dial-up modems seemed slow back then, now a 2-second delay drives us crazy. Meditation slows us down—it reconnects us with the capacity to shift between energy-intensive, sympathetic patterns and energy-conserving, parasympathetic patterns.

Stanton Shanedling: Right, right.

David Alter: We need practices focused on energy restoration, not constant spending of energy. Nature never rushes, yet all is accomplished. Meditation reconnects us with that rhythm.

Barry Baines: Building on social connection: meditation is often solitary, but does practicing in community amplify its effect? Singing with others gives goosebumps; is there research or insight on group versus solo meditation?

David Alter: Research aside, my experience: it’s both. Solo practice helps you internally, but it affects how you interact socially afterward. Bringing a different self to work, marriage, parenting—both solo and group practice matter.

Stanton Shanedling: Another thought: control. When people are anxious or stressed, they often feel out of control. Do these practices help reconnect with a sense of control?

David Alter: I struggle with the idea of control—it may not actually exist. People say, “I need balance,” another way of saying control. But have you ever seen a unicyclist stop? Their legs never stop—they’re constantly adjusting. Balance is about adjusting and adapting, not control. Meditation helps trust our capacity to adjust to what’s always changing, reducing distress.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah, becoming more malleable, like a rubber band.

Stanton Shanedling: Listening to this has been really relaxing—just taking a moment, smelling the roses, breathing, letting the body adjust, and then going forth.

Barry Baines: Fabulous. Shifting perspective automatically changes things. In hospice, we ask about pain level; asking about comfort instead can be a game-changer. We influence everything through interaction—adapt and adjust builds resilience.

Clarence Jones: I agree. Listening to you, David, I can feel my head relaxing. I see the value of both Eastern and Western thinking—how internal factors we’re born with can help us be more effective and connected. I’ll utilize this personally—it was a great introductory conversation.

David Alter: Thank you, Claire. It was wonderful.

Stanton Shanedling: David, perspective—last thoughts?

David Alter: Thank you. Your questions were great. This felt natural. An hour or two from now, I’ll think, “I haven’t seen those guys in years,” even though it’s today. Because there's a deep connection, I think, that we forged together. Something I think is worth meditating on at the social-cultural level. Because I think these days, that's a lot of what's hurting around the world. There's a book I just finished reading, from my faith tradition—a Jewish background—called The Triumph of Life. And if you reduce it down, The author is saying, each day, we engage in many, many actions. Our responsibility in the world is to act to repair the world. Not to repair the self, but to make a positive difference in the world, to leave it better than how we found it. And so he says, in each decision we make, We can either support life, or we can support death. By death, he means dismissing, rejecting, abusing, criticizing—those are degrading choices. Or we can make choices that lift up, choices in terms of living, of life. Taking a moment, looking a person in the eye, and saying thank you is a simple step—a meditative step in the sense that you start to recognize how many dozens of opportunities a day. You can take those simple steps that build toward a better place. And frankly, it comes back on the individual to help them feel—we've used the word control—A sense of emotional safety, a sense of internal peace, because we're joining a community effort, a worldwide effort, that each of us individually and collectively can take steps. To make the world a better place. Now, you don't do that in a meditation studio—that's not the focus. And yet, you can come out of that, or come out of your easy chair, having done meditation. With this recharged energy to say, I have agency. To make a positive difference in my life, my drop in the bucket to make the world a better place. Because the world is in need of healing. So, to the extent this conversation helps each of us—or your audience—to act as those agents, then we all win. You know, Clarence, you made a great point. David has… a calming voice.

Stanton Shanedling: Even when you're making strong points, it's really… greatly appreciated. I want to thank you. Really, really, thank you a lot. This has been a wonderful episode of Health Chatter, and you're a special guest. Ironically, now this will be interesting—we're going to be doing a show coming up on: Should we just medicate? Interesting, right? Yeah. And obviously, after hearing this, the answer should be no. You should just… meditate.

Barry Baines: Should we just meditate?

Stanton Shanedling: Or benefit, yeah—right, right, right. David, thank you so much. To our listening audience, everybody, keep health chatting away.