Grateful Mind Foundation with John Holien

Welcome and Team Recognition

Stanton Shanedling: Hello, everybody! Happy May Day! Today is May 1st! So, happy May Day to everybody. Got a great show today. We'll get into that in a minute. Got a great crew, that always is second to none as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not sure if there's any podcast out there that's got such a great crew like we do. Maddy Levine-Wolf, Erin Collins, Deondra Howard, Matthew Campbell, and Sheridan Nygard all do wonderful work for us—whether it's background research, recording of shows, transcribing of shows, keeping our calendars up to date, or keeping us non-techy guys in the queue. So they're really, really good, so thank you to all of you.

Dr. Barry Baines is our medical advisor on these shows. He brings the medical perspective from all the years that he practiced medicine. And then, of course, there's Clarence Jones, my esteemed colleague. We've been doing these shows a long time, and it's been a pleasure—a pleasure working with all of you.

We have a great sponsor through Clarence, and it's HueMan Partnership, H-U-E-M-A-N. What that really means is that it doesn't matter what color your skin is, we all have health issues that we can address together. humanpartnershipAlliance.org, you can check them out. They're a wonderful community health organization and second to none. So, thanks to them as well. You can check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com. You can obviously listen to our podcasts, but also you can read the transcriptions of them and see our background research if you're interested in digging deeper into the subjects that we're talking about. So, thanks to everybody.

Introducing John Holian and the Grateful Mind Foundation

Stanton Shanedling: Today, we have a really interesting show, and in many ways, it's a special show. We're going to be dealing with the Grateful Mind Foundation, and also addressing it through some logistics around addiction. We have a wonderful, wonderful guest with us today, John Holian. I met John a little over a year ago—about almost a year and a half ago—when I went on one of his retreats down in Costa Rica. For those that went, we were Grateful Dead fans. It's called the Grateful Retreat, and it was in the jungle of Costa Rica. I don't remember, John, how many of us were there. It must have been about a dozen of us at the time, but it was truly special. Each one of us had unique perspectives on life and the ups and downs of life, and we all really bonded in a very, very unique way. And I certainly bonded with John.

John is a unique individual. He has a unique background and has done many, many things. He himself has had his ups and downs, but he's committed to helping people. When we think about public health, or we think about the medical field, we try to embrace that as well, but John comes at it with his Grateful Mind Foundation from a unique perspective and also unique activities on how it is that people can move forward with their health in creative ways. So, John, I really appreciate you being on our show today, so thank you so much.

John Holian: Thank you for having me.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah. So, alright, John, let's start this out. John has a book, a short book out, that really kind of defines the whole work around the Grateful Mind Foundation. Let's start there, John. Tell us your story as best you know how.

John’s Story and the Best Medicine

John Holian: All right, well, I'll try to be short with it. My story comes in the book, A Grateful Mind. I've lived this wonderful... I've grown old, you know? I've made it to 62 years old and had an amazing journey. I believe a few years ago I had a rebirth after being a homeless person. Well, first of all, I was a gifted athlete. And then I was the addict, alcoholic, homeless person. Then I built this amazing life through all the many, many people that have helped me along the way.

And then I failed at a business venture, and I failed well. Then I ended up in Costa Rica, and I had a chance to look at my life and look back at my life. With that came a rebirth. I realized that this wonderful journey that I've been on of just crazy highs and a few lows—I was meant to do something with this experience.

The thing that has carried me through my life is that, through the challenging times, I learned that helping another human being was the best medicine for me. When I was really challenged and my anxiety and my world was kicking my butt, I learned that helping another human being is the thing that made me right. So I created the Grateful Mind Foundation to help other people put themselves in a position to help other people.

I do that through a teacher training for breathwork, yoga, and meditation, and it's free. All these people have to do is go back to their peers after they've received the training and give it away. I built it around people having the opportunity to feel good about themselves and to go help another human being, because I just think that's the best medicine in the world. With that, we also create community. Isolation is such a big challenge today. So we create community, and we learn some of these holistic modalities which have been a big, big part of my life and my calm. So that's the real short story, but I truly believe that helping another human being can have a wonderful ripple on life, and that's where it starts.

Stanton Shanedling: You know, it's interesting, when I was down in Costa Rica with you, when we were all just sharing stories, life events, and life's ups and downs, the level of sensitivity that people had towards one another was indeed unique. What helped to do it was the unique environment that we were in, but it was really great. Clarence, go ahead.

Exploring the Concept of "Rebirth"

Clarence Jones: John, thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciate and value that. But you mentioned rebirth twice in your presentation. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

John Holian: Yes, please. The first rebirth was when I was choosing to live or die. My mother asked me if I was... she was saving money for my funeral, if you've read the book, and I was waiting to die. I was hoping to die. And then I had a vision of my mother coming to my funeral, and I couldn't do that. Shortly after that, she asked me what I was going to do. I said I needed help, and that was the beginning of my life again. From there, it's just been pure blessing, and I was able to turn those challenges of looking at the world through those eyes into this powerful perspective of being grateful for everything I have.

The second rebirth was going to Costa Rica. I had a beautiful life, raised some amazing kids, and just been blessed with a full life that I really, really appreciate. But I got my butt kicked, and as an addict, I went too far. So, not only did I just lose my money, I lost epically. I went to Costa Rica with a plane ticket and $500 in my pocket. I started hitchhiking around the country, and that's when all these awarenesses of all these other years came into view. I was able to see how beautiful it was to have had all these experiences and get ready. I knew there was something powerful ahead of me, that I was on this planet for a reason, and that I was supposed to use these experiences to do something good, man.

So I was literally an old man hitchhiking around the country in Costa Rica, not really knowing where I was going to go or what I was going to do. I just knew that I'd been through a few things in my life and that I was almost indestructible because of what I'd done to myself at different times. I was just trying to be patient and trying to understand what I was supposed to do with this experience. That's where I realized that helping another human being was such great medicine.

Yoga had done a great impact on my life, and then the breathwork and the meditation that was introduced through yoga had a really impactful place in my life. When I slowed my brain down while hitchhiking around the country—not having a place to go, really just kind of being present—these thoughts came into my brain. That's where the Grateful Mind Foundation kind of came to be. Now I get to use all my business and entrepreneurial experiences and try to execute this and help a lot of people with my dream and my vision.

Clarence Jones: Thank you for your transparency. Appreciate it.

Stanton Shanedling: Barry! Amen. You got some insights on helping people from your perspective?

Medical Validation and Reaching Vulnerable Communities

Barry Baines: Huh? Well, yeah. A few in the medical arena. But what I really like and appreciate here is the idea that by helping others, by supporting others, it gives a lot of meaning and gratitude for each life that we have. I think John touched on the fact that communities and people in communities have become more isolated. In our society, we have very much an "it's me, it's all about me" self-identity. This turns that a little bit.

We've had a number of shows that address things like mindfulness, meditation, and yoga. Putting on my medical hat, because that's what you want me to do, these are often things that don't cost a lot of money, they don't have many bad side effects, and they have a pretty good return on investment both at a personal level and at a community level.

The question that I had for John is understanding—because I know that you identified four particular communities where extending the Grateful Mind program could be very beneficial—I'm just wondering if you could share how you're able to work within education. I do elementary school tutoring in math, so I'm in the classroom almost every day, and I think some grateful mind work could be helpful for all concerned. But also within the incarceration and prison setting, and with veterans. Corporations, yeah, but I'm thinking more like veterans, prisons, and education, where more of these gratitude resources and just learning about being more calm and being helpful really can have added dividends for people and their own personal growth. So, that might not be strictly a medical view on things, but in the end, engaging in these kinds of things will result in better overall health—certainly better mental health and also better physical health. So I'd like you to kind of spin this out for us a little bit more in terms of the program itself, if you could or if you would.

John Holian: Yes, sir. Thank you, and I love the validation from a doctor that you believe that we're on the right path. My first thought is the Grateful Mind is one avenue to bring awareness to helping another human being, but my dream vision is to have the grateful mind be synonymous with just helping another human being. Whether somebody's got a shirt on and you're helping somebody across the street, or just giving somebody a smile—if we could give versus take, that's my Pollyanna dream of creating a movement that is about helping another human being.

I think my initial vision was to create this around the recovery world. We have this twelfth step in recovery that if you're going to get sober, you're going to go help another human being, and that's how you're going to have a good sobriety and stay sober. Then, as I was working this out, I realized that that's pretty consistent with everybody and everything. I love the idea of doing it in a peer way. So if we go to the schools, we'll work with some students, we'll give them the teacher training, and then they in turn introduce it to their fellow students. A lot of this is just an introduction to yoga, breathwork, and meditation from a bottom-up way rather than top-down. I call it yoga because that's kind of a mainstream word now, but the whole thing is really about being present and conscious.

I believe that these kids teaching each other will create a ripple. They go home, they talk to their brothers and sisters, their moms, and their friends. Then they finish school and go out into the universe, teaching the program wherever they go. So we're going to have this wonderful map that grows out. As far as the veterans, again, we all need this community, and we all benefit from helping another human being. Whether it's the people getting out of prison, they can help each other. We teach them while they're in prison; 80% of the program is the same.

I believe whether it be high schools or universities, that is one of the most impactful groups that we can influence. The breathwork, the meditation, being present, and receiving the training—there are lots of studies out there that measure the impact of that. If we catch these people at an early age, then they create that ripple of helping their peers. That's our dream, that's the model. It can have an impact on many different segments out there.

One other thing: if we teach a child or somebody the teacher training, the conservative numbers are that they're going to touch 450 different people a year with their training. So that's just one ripple. It's also very economical because I can teach these kids for free, and then it's a perpetual give that keeps going out there. So thanks for asking that wonderful question, and thanks for letting me tell that story.

A Day at the Costa Rica Retreat

Clarence Jones: Sam and John, what does a day in the session look like in Costa Rica?

John Holian: When we were down...

Stanton Shanedling: In Costa Rica?

Clarence Jones: In Costa Rica, what does a day in the session look like?

Stanton Shanedling: Boy, you know, I can reflect on that. It's very relaxing. Literally, you're in the middle of the jungle there. In the trees are sloths, toucans, and monkeys. Coconuts are falling down, and bananas are hanging from trees. But a typical day is not highly scheduled. There are certain things like yoga, which I wouldn't even describe as yoga—John, you can chime in on this, too. I wouldn't even describe it as yoga because we were up on a hill, and there was this absolutely breathtaking vista of mountains in the background. You didn't have to do anything but just look at that and take it in.

For me, many of the activities and things we did were about being able to be more mindful, be more in the moment, and share your thoughts and ideas with other people that were going through similar things. From a personal perspective, I wasn't addicted to anything, but I was definitely going through a hard transition at that time. I was dealing with an impending divorce from my wife, and being 72 at the time, that was a hard thing to swallow. What you realized is the energy from other people was really, really helpful. So the activities were kind of on the fly, really. Beautiful things. John, you can reflect on it as well, I'm sure.

The Grateful Dead Connection

John Holian: I'm going to use this as an opportunity to bring in the Grateful Dead. You mentioned the word "ripple" a couple of times. I went to my first Grateful Dead show in 1983. We were these small-town boys that had never been to a show before. It was only half sold out, and we had seats in the back of the venue. We were the only people in the world actually sitting in their seats, so we looked kind of odd. Some deadhead comes up to us and tells us we don't have to stay in our seats. "Oh, okay." Then he gave us some mushrooms, too. I hadn't tripped much, and I was so scared to be tripping in this environment that I didn't leave my chair the whole time. Everybody else went and saw the show and danced and whatnot, but I'm scared I'm gonna go through the ceiling. While I was there, 50 people must have come up to me and offered me water, offered me food, and made sure I was okay. Just pure kindness, pure love.

I had never been to a dead show before—I just went for it on a whim—but I fell in love with that kindness; I fell in love with those people. As I was doing my rebirth, how that ties into what I'm doing aside from the name of the foundation is that I wanted to put on a Grateful Dead retreat. Those were some of the kindest people ever, and I just knew that if I got a group of deadheads together, we would be givers instead of takers, and we would look to help each other. We threw in the yoga, the breathwork, the meditation, and good food. We kept them active, but it was just a group of beautiful people getting together to support each other. Yeah, so thanks for letting me work the energy of the Grateful Dead into this conversation.

Stanton Shanedling: You know, it's an important thing, too, because of the power of music. Eventually, on Health Chatter, we're going to do a show on music and how it is helpful. To that point, Grateful Dead music was basically the link that we all had because we all appreciated that music, but we were appreciating it in a different way and in a different environment. It's amazing how, after a week or so, you engage with people and they become your friends. They really do.

Clarence Jones: Stan, you know what I'm interested in? I'm interested in knowing your journey with the Grateful Dead, too. Oh, we're gonna go... I'm gonna probe you a little bit later.

Stanton Shanedling: Yeah, okay, okay, you can do that.

Clarence Jones: Alright, okay, alright.

Scaling the Vision and Moving to Minnesota

John Holian: I'd like to add that that's where my rebirth happened and where my vision came to be. We're going to continue to do some retreats in Costa Rica, but to scale what we are creating, we're going to create a real school, and we're going to do that in Minnesota. That way we can do it cost-effectively and in a way that's not as expensive. We can't all fly to Costa Rica, so we'll be able to spend more of the time and the money on teaching the human beings coming through the school.

Costa Rica is going to have a special place in our hearts, but it's not going to be where we grow our school. That's going to be in Minnesota. My dream is to do this on a really large scale so a large group of people can have the opportunity to receive the teacher training. I want to be able to map this out so it's absolutely inclusive in all ways. The only prerequisite is that you're going through a transition in life. Then I want to turn this into multiple brick-and-mortars, and people everywhere will be able to receive breathwork, yoga, and meditation classes for free anywhere in the United States.

Stanton Shanedling: You know, it's interesting. Barry, Clarence, and I, to a certain extent within our careers, have a "fixing it" component to it. Okay, if you're sick, how can we fix this? How can we heal this? From a medical perspective, it's more personal, but when you get into public health, how can we fix it or address it from a community perspective? So there's fixing or healing, and then there's moving on and embracing—if that all makes sense. It's like, okay, how do you move on differently going forward?

For instance, John, I know you and I have both had our knees replaced—or I've had both, and you've only had one, I think. But it's interesting; after you have that fixed, how is your life different going forward? Same idea here with the Grateful Mind Foundation. Now that we've helped you heal, what does that mean going forward? You might want to address that in the sense of, once people embrace this Grateful Mind philosophy, how is it that they can go ahead with it from an individual perspective and then a true sharing perspective?

Measuring Meaning, Happiness, and Quality of Life

John Holian: Thank you, that's a beautiful question. I measured it and created it around the recovery world, as I mentioned. I truly believe that if I go through treatment and I come out and I'm stable, and I get the chance to receive these tools, then I go back into my community and share this with my peers. That will be a tool that will have a measurable impact on this person's recovery. The ripple he creates by helping these peers with that teacher training is a whole other measurement. We have this app that is going to track everything because I believe the impact will be that great, but a lot of it will be in subtle ways.

Barry, you can speak to this, but there are studies from Johns Hopkins and others about helping another human being and the measurable medical impact that has. The breathwork, the meditation, the yoga—the impact that has on a human being and just the overall goodness of helping someone. We need these social places aside from the bars and some of these other not-so-healthy places to congregate. I believe with all the instincts I have that this is just going to create a flow of goodness. I just have to get it started. I've just gotta get this thing going, and I think people will feel it, see it, and want more of it. That's how we can create a movement of helping another human being, which is the dream.

Stanton Shanedling: You know, it's interesting. This last weekend, my neighbors across the alley had to go out of town. Jeff's mother lives with them and has medical issues, so they contacted me. "Stan, would you be willing to come there on Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night, and stay there with his mom for two to three hours each night?" I didn't think twice. I said, "Of course. Of course I will." I will tell you this: there is power in this stuff. When I came home each night, I really felt good. I really felt good because I was helping another individual—his mother—but also helping Jeff and his wife know that they didn't have to worry while they were gone. So, it's those simple little things that really are great. Barry, go ahead.

Barry Baines: Picking up from that, I have a couple of comments and then another question for John. This idea of helping others is a two-way street. Being willing to be helpful is just one part of the equation, because I think there's a reluctance on the part of people to ask for help when they need it. I'll personalize that—I'm so independent, I don't need help, I can do it all myself. But I think there are two parts to that. One is how it reflects on your independence by asking for help. But then the other piece is, especially in a polarized society, what happens if you ask someone for help and they refuse? How do you feel from that? That's why, in a bigger picture, I sort of like this idea of working from a Grateful Mind perspective and getting into that mindset of helping—either by being proactive about it, like helping someone cross the street, but also so that people can ask for help and feel that it's okay and they won't be rejected, because that's also very self-affirming to that person.

The other comment is that by being grateful and by helping others, that's actually a key component in personal happiness. All of us want to be happy. I think we relate happiness more to physical pleasure and physical things, but there's this other half that's the meaning part—what gives you meaning. Helping others is one of the ways that gives you purpose and meaning and makes you happier. It's sort of like how supporting charitable organizations helps people to feel better about themselves as well. So those are the comments.

Now the question for John: with these kinds of things, to me, it's always difficult to figure out how you can measure the impact. Empirically, we look at it and think, if all of us start being more grateful and helpful, it should make the world a better place. But what I struggle with is what kind of things can we look at to measure the impact? Like ripples, you want them to keep going. If I help Stan and Clarence, then Stan and Clarence will each help two other people. You don't have to go very far to really spread that out and make it a norm in our society, which could use something like that. But I'm just wondering, John, if you've thought much about or have a plan as you grow Grateful Mind on how the impact might be measured? That's the thing I'm scratching my head about. This is really good stuff, so how can we measure the positive impact of it?

John Holian: Brilliant question, and we're just trying to use the best practices from all the different stuff out there regarding joy and happiness. As people come to a class, for example, there are different measurables for the people that are teaching and the people that are receiving. A lot of it is going to be different questionnaires about how they're doing and how they're feeling at one month, three months, and six months, to perpetually measure. I think in the recovery world, that's easier. We'll be able to measure that. To me, recovery is not just about abstinence, though that is one of the things we can measure; it's about joy. So it's not as clean as a lot of measurables, but I believe in tracking their quality of life and their growth as it relates to how many people they are helping.

If they're just coming to class, we're going to be able to take some of the studies out there regarding the impact of yoga, breathwork, and meditation on human beings, and bring those together to form some conclusions. We're creating some technology that is going to track as much of this as possible. There are some measuring tools called FORCE and some other programs whose best practices I'm trying to copy. But I don't have a great answer to that. To be able to feel that we are having an impact and to be able to measure that would be something I'd like to take to my grave. So we will focus on that, and we will try to learn different ways to measure. I'm all ears if you have some suggestions as to how we can do that well.

Barry Baines: Yeah, well, I think you've already identified some good ways to do that. I worked for 25 years in end-of-life care, and one of the measures that we looked at was quality of life. There are some simple quality of life scales, and it's not just for people at the end of life; all of us want to have a good quality of life. So it sounds like you're looking at some good ways to track this and measure things. I assume it's going to be a work in progress as well. As an aside to that, I did visit your website and looked at some of the other staff folks in your organization who have some good skills in yoga, social work, etc. I'm sure your team can come up with some good ideas to help move that forward.

Stanton Shanedling: You know, it's interesting. One of the things that I personally took from my experience down in Costa Rica is connection—how it is that we can positively connect with others. For instance, when we were down there, I helped in the kitchen a few days just helping cook food. You would sit in the kitchen and just schmooze. We became almost addicted to the idea of a good cup of coffee in the morning with cardamom—good Costa Rican coffee with cardamom in it. Talking about connection, a couple of the people still connect with me. They'll send me a note: "Stan, I'm having a good cup of coffee right now that reminds me of when we were down in Costa Rica." Or there has certainly been one individual who contacts me every once in a while: "Can we just talk? I've got something to share with you." Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't we? So, to that end, Barry, there's not an easy way to measure that, except the idea that it really feels good. I'm also reminded of Einstein's famous quote: "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." Clarence, go ahead.

Clarence Jones: Well, I'm really excited. Again, I've really, really been taking this in, John, and I really appreciate you sharing your vision and your work. Like I said before, you gave me an insight into Dr. Stan here that I'm going to explore a little bit. I'm gonna do a little bit more probing on him, but thank you, thank you, thank you for what you've been sharing.

John Holian: Thank you, sir.

Next Steps for the Foundation and Closing Thoughts

Stanton Shanedling: So, John, what's the first next major step for the Grateful Mind Foundation? What is the first major step going forward here?

John Holian: Great question, thank you. We've assembled a wonderful team to execute this. We are creating our own curriculum for our teacher training program with equal parts meditation, breathwork, and yoga. My first yoga teacher, Kitty, is the person creating this for us, and she's just an amazing human being. Thank you, Kitty.

Our first teacher training is going to be in November, which will be our beta in Costa Rica at the farm. Hopefully, we'll do two teacher trainings this year as we get our systems in place. Then, hopefully by '27, we have a brick-and-mortar that we're starting in Minnesota.

I've not created a 501(c)(3) before or worked in the nonprofit space at all, so I need to learn how to do fundraising. I need the money to execute it, and because I believe in what I'm doing, I believe that will happen. Right now, I'm in San Diego trying to learn the industry at a convention for the fundraising world. I know from my history that if I feel this passionately about something, I'll figure out what I don't know. So at 62 years old, I'm gonna give it everything I've got one more time.

My book comes from the heart, and I want to do some public speaking—which will be new to me as well—to bring attention and support to the Grateful Mind Foundation. I'm looking for beautiful people, from teammates to volunteers to mentors. So if you hear this message and you believe in what we're doing, please reach out. I'm all ears. I want to surround myself with the best people possible to create something that is not going to be easy to create. So I'm going to need beautiful people to do it. Just gonna hang on and give it everything I've got.

Stanton Shanedling: Well, you're on the right track. I know that, and I can feel it. Barry, last thoughts?

Barry Baines: I just didn't know, Stan, if you were gonna move down to Costa Rica after you came back, right, Clarence? He was kinda...

Stanton Shanedling: It's enticing, I'll tell ya. It's a beautiful...

Barry Baines: Beautiful. I noticed a positive change when you came back, so the proof is in the pudding here. Whatever saying we want to use. I know it was an N of 1 that we saw, but obviously, these kinds of programs can be a real positive. I really appreciated learning about the Grateful Mind organization and the process. I know that Costa Rican coffee is really good, so I'm gonna have to try some cardamom in mine and see how that tastes. I bet it'll be pretty good. So, John, thank you. I certainly wish you luck with this venture. Speaking for Stan and Clarence, we'd also like to get a sense of how things are going as you move this forward. It would be good to loop back and just hear about that. It was really a pleasure to meet you today. Thank you.

John Holian: Thank you, and I look forward to reporting back. Appreciate it.

Stanton Shanedling: John, you're the best. You're unique, and I thank you for what you've done for me. Hopefully, there'll be more good things going forward. So thanks for being on Health Chatter.

For those of you in our listening audience, we've got some really interesting shows coming up. We're gonna be looking at disabilities and research. We're gonna be looking at longevity, which is a complicated subject we were talking about before the show. Everybody seems to be getting their hands in it a little bit, so we're gonna try to take a look and chat about longevity. We've got great shows that'll bring us into the spring and summer. So, for everybody out there in Health Chatter land, keep health chatting away.